HackRF - USB noise? or malfunctions due to high temperature?

yo4dft · June 28, 2024, 2:40pm

I tested a HackRF One on an old laptop, Toshiba 850, with Debian 11. Unfortunately, the function was unstable, there were good receptions, then there were very noisy receptions. I moved the HackRF to another laptop, the Toshiba L300 on which I was running an RTL V4 Blog.
Same symptoms occur, seems to be a USB noise issue.

ristian@yo4dft:~$ sudo journalctl -f -u satnogs-client.service
[sudo] parolă pentru cristian:
– Journal begins at Sat 2024-05-25 10:01:19 EEST. –
iun 28 16:14:29 yo4dft satnogs-client[4017]: netrigctl_close: done status=Command completed successfully
iun 28 16:16:29 yo4dft satnogs-client[4017]: rig_init: rig does not have rx_range!!
iun 28 16:16:29 yo4dft satnogs-client[4017]: network_open: hoststr=127.0.0.1, portstr=4532
iun 28 16:16:30 yo4dft satnogs-client[7688]: [INFO] Opening HackRF One #0 66a062dc232c3e9f…
iun 28 16:26:08 yo4dft satnogs-client[4017]: netrigctl_close: done status=Command completed successfully
iun 28 16:27:50 yo4dft systemd[1]: Stopping SatNOGS client…
iun 28 16:27:50 yo4dft systemd[1]: satnogs-client.service: Succeeded.
iun 28 16:27:50 yo4dft systemd[1]: Stopped SatNOGS client.
iun 28 16:27:50 yo4dft systemd[1]: satnogs-client.service: Consumed 17min 8.532s CPU time.
– Boot fdf6267e18e64ae3b2cbbf5756a8f038 –
iun 28 16:28:53 yo4dft systemd[1]: Started SatNOGS client.
iun 28 16:44:05 yo4dft satnogs-client[467]: rot_init called
iun 28 16:44:05 yo4dft satnogs-client[467]: initrots4_dummy: _init called
iun 28 16:44:05 yo4dft satnogs-client[467]: rot_register (1)
iun 28 16:44:05 yo4dft satnogs-client[467]: rot_register (2)
iun 28 16:44:05 yo4dft satnogs-client[467]: dummy_rot_init called
iun 28 16:44:05 yo4dft satnogs-client[467]: rot_open called
iun 28 16:44:05 yo4dft satnogs-client[467]: dummy_rot_open called
iun 28 16:44:05 yo4dft satnogs-client[467]: rot_get_position called
iun 28 16:44:05 yo4dft satnogs-client[467]: dummy_rot_get_position called
iun 28 16:44:05 yo4dft satnogs-client[467]: rot_get_position: got az=0.00, el=0.00
iun 28 16:44:05 yo4dft satnogs-client[467]: rot_set_position called az=21.00 el=4.14
iun 28 16:44:05 yo4dft satnogs-client[467]: rot_set_position: south_zero=0
iun 28 16:44:05 yo4dft satnogs-client[467]: dummy_rot_set_position called: 21.00 4.14
iun 28 16:44:05 yo4dft satnogs-client[467]: rig_init: rig does not have rx_range!!
iun 28 16:44:05 yo4dft satnogs-client[467]: network_open: hoststr=127.0.0.1, portstr=4532
iun 28 16:44:11 yo4dft satnogs-client[2075]: [INFO] Opening HackRF One #0 66a062dc232c3e9f…
iun 28 16:52:36 yo4dft satnogs-client[2075]: OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOsOsOsOsOsOsOsOsOsOsOsOsOsOsOsOsOsOsOsOsOsOsOsOsOsOsOsOsOsOsOsOsOsOsOsOsOsOsOsOsOsOsOsOsOsOsOsOsOsOsOsOsOsOsOsOsOsOsOsOsOsOsOsOsOsOsOsOsOsOsOsOsOsOsOsOsOsOsOsOsOsOsOsOsOsOsOsOsOsOsO
iun 28 16:52:36 yo4dft satnogs-client[467]: netrigctl_close: done status=Command completed successfully
iun 28 16:53:42 yo4dft satnogs-client[467]: rig_init: rig does not have rx_range!!
iun 28 16:53:42 yo4dft satnogs-client[467]: network_open: hoststr=127.0.0.1, portstr=4532
iun 28 16:53:43 yo4dft satnogs-client[2507]: [INFO] Opening HackRF One #0 66a062dc232c3e9f…
^C
cristian@yo4dft:~$ SoapySDRUtil --find
######################################################

Soapy SDR – the SDR abstraction library

######################################################

[INFO] [UHD] linux; GNU C++ version 10.2.1 20210110; Boost_107400; UHD_3.15.0.0-4+b1satnogs1
Found device 0
default_input = True
default_output = True
device_id = 0
driver = audio
label = PulseAudio

Found device 1
device = HackRF One
driver = hackrf
label = HackRF One #0 66a062dc232c3e9f
part_id = a000cb3c00614f5a
serial = 000000000000000066a062dc232c3e9f
version = 2024.02.1

Found device 2
default_input = True
default_output = True
device_id = 0
driver = remote
label = PulseAudio
remote = tcp://192.168.88.47:55132
remote:driver = audio

Found device 3
device = HackRF One
driver = remote
label = HackRF One #0 66a062dc232c3e9f
part_id = a000cb3c00614f5a
remote = tcp://192.168.88.47:55132
remote:driver = hackrf
serial = 000000000000000066a062dc232c3e9f
version = 2024.02.1

cristian@yo4dft:~$ SoapySDRUtil --probe=“driver=hackrf”
######################################################

Soapy SDR – the SDR abstraction library

######################################################

Probe device driver=hackrf
[INFO] Opening HackRF One #0 66a062dc232c3e9f…

– Device identification

driver=HackRF
hardware=HackRF One
clock source=internal
part id=a000cb3c00614f5a
serial=000000000000000066a062dc232c3e9f
version=2024.02.1

– Peripheral summary

Channels: 1 Rx, 1 Tx
Timestamps: NO
Other Settings:
* Antenna Bias - Antenna port power control.
[key=bias_tx, default=false, type=bool]

– RX Channel 0

Full-duplex: NO
Supports AGC: NO
Stream formats: CS8, CS16, CF32, CF64
Native format: CS8 [full-scale=128]
Stream args:
* Buffer Count - Number of buffers per read.
[key=buffers, units=buffers, default=15, type=int]
Antennas: TX/RX
Full gain range: [0, 116] dB
LNA gain range: [0, 40] dB
AMP gain range: [0, 14] dB
VGA gain range: [0, 62] dB
Full freq range: [0, 7250] MHz
RF freq range: [0, 7250] MHz
Sample rates: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, …, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 MSps
Filter bandwidths: 1.75, 2.5, 3.5, 5, 5.5, …, 14, 15, 20, 24, 28 MHz

– TX Channel 0

Full-duplex: NO
Supports AGC: NO
Stream formats: CS8, CS16, CF32, CF64
Native format: CS8 [full-scale=128]
Stream args:
* Buffer Count - Number of buffers per read.
[key=buffers, units=buffers, default=15, type=int]
Antennas: TX/RX
Full gain range: [0, 61] dB
VGA gain range: [0, 47] dB
AMP gain range: [0, 14] dB
Full freq range: [0, 7250] MHz
RF freq range: [0, 7250] MHz
Sample rates: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, …, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 MSps
Filter bandwidths: 1.75, 2.5, 3.5, 5, 5.5, …, 14, 15, 20, 24, 28 MHz

cristian@yo4dft:~$ hackrf_info
hackrf_info version: unknown
libhackrf version: unknown (0.5)
Found HackRF
Index: 0
Serial number: 000000000000000066a062dc232c3e9f
Board ID Number: 2 (HackRF One)
Firmware Version: 2024.02.1 (API:1.08)
Part ID Number: 0xa000cb3c 0x00614f5a
Operacake found, address: 0xff
Operacake found, address: 0xff
Operacake found, address: 0xff
Operacake found, address: 0xff
Operacake found, address: 0xff
Operacake found, address: 0xff
Operacake found, address: 0xff
Operacake found, address: 0xff

        "total": 2984091648,
        "available": 1226051584,
        "percent": 58.9,
        "used": 1487093760,
        "free": 199995392,
        "active": 667852800,
        "inactive": 1835413504,
        "buffers": 58253312,
        "cached": 1238749184,
        "shared": 92024832,
        "slab": 138022912
    },
    "disk": {
        "total": 238530957312,
        "used": 14975578112,
        "free": 211364069376,
        "percent": 6.6
    }
},
"configuration": {
    "satnogs_antenna": "TX/RX",
    "satnogs_api_token": "[redacted]",
    "satnogs_gain_mode": "Settings Field",
    "satnogs_lo_offset": "300000",
    "satnogs_other_settings": "AMP=14,LNA=40,VGA=50",
    "satnogs_ppm_error": "0",
    "satnogs_radio_flowgraphs_version": "1.5-1",
    "satnogs_rx_samp_rate": "8e6",
    "satnogs_soapy_rx_device": "driver=hackrf",
    "satnogs_station_elev": "50",
    "satnogs_station_id": "3600",
    "satnogs_station_lat": "44.141",
    "satnogs_station_lon": "28.617"
}

}
------------[ copy end ]-------------

Press Enter to continue…

https://network.satnogs.org/observations/9763248/

and other observation, during this, the noise dissapear
https://network.satnogs.org/observations/9752041/
I tried to use usb reset, same results…

SA2KNG · June 30, 2024, 5:27pm

If you want to have a good receiving station, all these noise issues needs to be addressed.
Any noise carried by the coax up to the antenna will be picked up and showing on the results.
RF choke clips or toroids used on the USB, power, coax cable will help with this.
Proper grounding of the equipment.
Keep everything away from other noise sources.
Filters for the signals can be needed on some sites, if strong out of band signals are present. FM notch is one example, UHF bandpass/saw is another.

Once in a while I usually need to hunt down sources in my home, often a switching power supply that has dried out capacitors and start to interfere a lot.

The gain values used can also be too high, all sorts of spikes and imaging will appear.
Keeping the gain as low as possible without SNR loss is preferred.
Using a LNA at the antenna feedpoint rather than high gain at the receiver.

yo4dft · July 1, 2024, 10:11am

Hi Daniel,
Almost all noise issues are solved, you can see the receptions on 3600 station with RTLV4.

All the equipment is located in my shack, an old building body separate from the house.
No LEDs în the shack or around. Separate ground installation for this shack.
For RTL V4 I made a pc connection cable with additional screen, connected to ground and RF choke clips.
-Choke clips when the coaxial cable enter în the shack.
-All the groundings cable go separatly to one plate, from there to the earth.
-LNA at 0.5 m from antenna., etc, etc…
So, in fact I replaced RTL V4 + Toshiba L300 (Bullseye) with HackRF + Toshiba 850 on same installation (antenna, LNA, cavity filter).
Assuming the laptop is the problem, I switched the 850 model with old L350. Same problems.
I checked HackRF unit on the other laptop, a new one, with Win10. It works, as a new unit.
Saturday evening (June 29) I made a lot of test, with the telescopic antenna from HackRF package, withount LNA (on 3387 station).
I changed sample rates, form 8 Mhz to 1 Mhz, the gain levels, etc.
First acceptable waterfall was
SatNOGS Network - Observation 9769546
where
samp-rate-rx: “1e6” / other-settings: “AMP=1,LNA=40,VGA=50”
The settings AMP=1 i founded at 1433 - PE2BZ station.
So, the noise dissapeared when I modify AMP from 14 to 1 !!!???
On the other hand, I assume the problems are old laptops, even RTL V4 is working on them.

My questions are:
-Does anybody experienced something like this ?

What about AMP=1, not AMP=14 ???

On the other hand, my advice (after testing HackRF on Win10 programs, on shortwave and 1090 Mhz (ADSB) is to use RF choke clips on USB cable and replace the plastic enclosure with an aluminium one, or, to cover the plastic encloser with aluminium foil form wife kitchen.

SA2KNG · July 1, 2024, 12:03pm

I think the values shown in the probe does not reveal the entire mechanic behind the values…

  Full gain range: [0, 116] dB
    LNA gain range: [0, 40] dB
    AMP gain range: [0, 14] dB
    VGA gain range: [0, 62] dB

What is not shown here is the steps that these have.
AMP is either on or off, everything below 14 is rounded down to zero. I have fried this one at least 3 times, and i simply have it disabled ever since.
LNA is in steps of 8, rounded down.
VGA is in steps of 2, rounded down.

Full gain range is the one used in “overall”, where the individual values is calculated based on the requested gain.

LNA and VGA is 16 as default in soapy and the driver. I usually start there and max at maybe 32 for both before the spectrum starts looking bad.
LNA=16 and VGA=20 to 32 is where I usually have gqrx set, maybe LNA=24 and VGA=16-32.
When LNA is increased, you will get more birdies and crap in the spectrum. If you set these too high, you will only get a big mess.

yo4dft · July 1, 2024, 12:21pm

Yes, it makes sense then, when I enter the value 1, I actually disconnect the amplifier U13.
Regarding the gain level, yes, in the long wave and short wave tests (with SDR Console), I had to go below LNA=24 and VGA=32, with 6 meters long wire antenna (without preselector) for good results (listen AM broadcast and traffic radio in 7Mhz band)
The source of the noise is probably from inside the old laptops, given by their unstable operation, even the RTL V4 works satisfactorily on them.

SA2KNG · July 1, 2024, 12:57pm

I know @PE0SAT has been using laptops as well, I don’t have too good experience with that. I prefer raspberry pi or some sort of small pc like M910q or Q920. There’s plenty of them around as many of them don’t run windows 11 and get sold on fleabay and similar as surplus.
They are also much easier to build into a compact unit with everything included, easy to handle and low risk of ripping the cables by accident when mounted on a plate or in a enclosure.

PE0SAT · July 1, 2024, 7:59pm

I don’t know if this is helpful, but let me share some experiences.

At the moment I ones in a while use the HackRF for S-band observations, when I do I can no longer receive weather satellites on the 137 MHz range, the HackRF is producing some much USB related noise on those frequencies that all obs fail.

Below the HackRF settings for S-band.

SATNOGS_SOAPY_RX_DEVICE="driver=hackrf"
SATNOGS_RX_SAMP_RATE="8e6"
SATNOGS_GAIN_MODE="Settings Field"
SATNOGS_OTHER_SETTINGS="AMP=14,LNA=24,VGA=48"
SATNOGS_ANTENNA="TX/RX"
SATNOGS_DEV_ARGS="bias_tx=true"

Then what systems I use, yes in the past I used an old HP laptop for a very long time and it was a big improvement compared to Pi2 and Pi3. Now I completely switched to mini PC, in my case Fujitsu models but you can also have a look at other vendors like Lenovo.

The downside is that you need to have more experience with hardware and software, but on the other hand, you are very flexible. One of the systems also runs Docker, which allows me to run multiple containers with different receiving functions.

Jan - PE0SAT

yo4dft · July 2, 2024, 7:19am

Good morning Jan,
Thank you very much for details.
So if I understood correctly:
HackRF is actually the noise generator, not the laptop. For this reason, the HackRF is better suited for receiving signals higher than 500 Mhz (eg S-band), provided it is at a convenient distance from other VHF and UHF receivers so as not to disturb them.
On the other hand, I took a closer look at when the disruptions appeared and when they disappeared. For three days in a row (June 26, 27 and 28), disturbances appeared in the morning at 09:00 local time and disappeared in the evening at 23:30 - 24:00 local time (After 28 June, 3387 station, with HackRF, is offline).
During the nights the receptions were OK, without disturbances.
During the same days, the outside temperatures in my area were above 30-33 degrees Celsius, and at night they did not drop below 20 degrees Celsius.
My shack has a tin roof, has natural ventilation (windows), but the temperature inside rises a lot in summer.
My suspicion is that the malfunction was caused by the ambient temperature being too high… for the HackRF…